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 Post subject: a new food issue
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:58 pm 
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So Nira has been refusing all live food for the last 2 weeks or so. She won't touch her roaches, superworms, horns, crickets or silks. She even turns her nose up at wax worms. I do see her salad thrown around some days, so I guess she's eating a little. The reason I'm worried is because she has lost 11 grams since all this started. She was 340 grams and now is 329 grams. She is almost 7 months. Her temps are fine, 108 at the basking rock down to about 92 at the lowest point, so she has a choice. The cool side is 74 to 78, depending if I use the light on her cool side. She will dig in her sandbox, run all around if I take her out, bask etc. Some days though I have to physically put her on her rock or she'll stay in her hammock on the cool side for extended periods. She does tend to stay on her rock if I put her there, which I can't always do. I sent in her poo for a fecal, but haven't gotten any results yet. Does it sound like I need to take her to a vet? Any other ideas on what to try?

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Mom to 2 beautiful boys 6 & 8
Bearded dragon, Nira, born 7/10/13
Dog, Dozer, born 9/25/08


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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:50 am 
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Possibly brumation - this explains it for you viewtopic.php?f=4&t=477 > Wait for the report on her fecal float then come back here (depending on the report).

Rick

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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:39 am 
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I thought she was to young for brumation. Will the lack of calcium intake cause mbd at this point in her growth? That is my biggest worry. Is it normal to lose weight like this when brumating? I have to admit, I'm obsessively weighing her and panicking every time she loses another gram. :roll:...she is absolutely killing me here :x :x

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Mom to 2 beautiful boys 6 & 8
Bearded dragon, Nira, born 7/10/13
Dog, Dozer, born 9/25/08


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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:32 pm 
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Given that she is already at a young adult's weight with over 12 months to go before she would be considered adult I'd be more concerned with such a rapid growth rate. In brumation the body pretty well shuts down so - no growth and thus no calcium requirement.
weight loss doesn't occur in brumation itself as the body is nearly in suspension, however if they are trying to shut down but the temps are still up the body is burning calories and weight loss will occur. Once you've received the test results it'll be easier to see what's going on. Intestinal parasites will reduce appetite so we do need to know what the test shows first.

Rick

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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:36 pm 
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OK. Thanks again. Hopefully I get the results soon and then I'll get back with the results.

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Mom to 2 beautiful boys 6 & 8
Bearded dragon, Nira, born 7/10/13
Dog, Dozer, born 9/25/08


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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:08 am 
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OK Rick......they finally got back to me with Niras fecal results. They basically gave her a clean bill of health. They said she had a couple of roundworm and pinworm eggs, and recommended a dose of panacur and to disinfect her cage. Mind you, this wasn't thru a vet, but, a site that comes highly recommended on beardeddragon.org for basic fecal analysis. What would you suggest as my next steps? TIA

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Kim
Mom to 2 beautiful boys 6 & 8
Bearded dragon, Nira, born 7/10/13
Dog, Dozer, born 9/25/08


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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:04 am 
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If she only had "a couple of eggs" then unless they're a professional lab/vet I'd take no action. Panacur (or any other medication) needs to be prescribed based on weight and whether a short or long course would be more beneficial. I'm afraid that I'm not overly impressed by beardeddragon.org in a lot of areas as there appear to be so many "experts" tending to contradict each other. If you got a technical report in the same manner as Pinmore lab. provides I'd suggest taking it along to a reptile specialist vet and in this case I would have her checked anyway as it may not be a simple case of brumation. Do ensure that who ever you see is actually well versed in reptile health as I'm afraid there are too many vets dabbling in this area but with little real knowledge.

Rick

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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:44 am 
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I made an appointment with a vet who is supposedly an exotics specialist. She doesn't go until Feb. 10th though. How do I ever get them a fecal sample for retesting when she has stopped eating, therefore not pooping. Should I force feed her some baby food or carnivore care in order to hopefully get one? In the meantime, would it be wise to give her liquid calcium to make sure she is not lacking? If so, how do I do it? She is so erratic with her behavior, like yesterday she basked a good bit, then today was ice cold when I got home from work. Looks like she never moved all day. Some days when I take her out she wants down to run around, then the next day she doesn't budge from my shoulder....just sleeps. And round and round we go for the past 3.5 weeks. :x :x :x. The only thing that stays consistent is her refusal to eat. When I try to hand feed her, she looks at it, starts to open her mouth slightly and then looks the other way! :roll: :roll:. I swear to god sometimes she's enjoying my agony over this... :lol: :lol: If it would help for me to post a pic of her, her and her setup, or just her setup, please let me know. I don't know how to proceed, especially without a fecal sample. Are you familiar with the website BeardedDragon.co? I think the owner has been on here a few times under the name Drache613, or something similar. Also a breeder if I'm not mistaken. Anyways that's who did her fecal. I was just wondering if you were familiar at all. Sorry this is so long, but I really need help, especially if this vet is a quack.... :o :o :o

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Mom to 2 beautiful boys 6 & 8
Bearded dragon, Nira, born 7/10/13
Dog, Dozer, born 9/25/08


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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:53 am 
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If Drach613 did the sample then I'm familiar with her and would trust her report. A picture of the viv may help and assist feeding some crix (or roaches) won't hurt. Another 10 days without calcium intake isn't going to cause a problem so better to do nothing else at this stage until you've seen the vet.

Rick

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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:18 am 
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Let me know if you need more or different shots. thanks for any and all input. I guess I'll heed Drache's advice on the panacur dosage and cage cleaning, since she seems to be a reliable source. I've included 2 pics of Nira to see how you thought she looks overall for a 7 month dragon. I cant thank you enough for you input with this.

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Kim
Mom to 2 beautiful boys 6 & 8
Bearded dragon, Nira, born 7/10/13
Dog, Dozer, born 9/25/08


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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:46 am 
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Honest opinion is that she's well over-size for 7 months. I'm guessing you've been feeding large quantities daily since you got her. :D Had you just posted the photo without an age I'd have said fully adult and a little porky at that! Did Drache give you quantities and number of doses? The panacur may also put her off food just to complicate things. Nothing much I'd alter in the viv but it looks as if you're using a dial thermometer on the rear wall - if so you should ditch it and get a digital one. The dial ones are pretty inaccurate and can be up to 5 deg. out!
From the point of view of feeding you should cut her back to adult frequency i.e. veg daily and live food every second day very rapid weight gain/growth puts a strain on the whole body - over here 450~500 gm is considered a very good weight for a fully grown adult.
One last thing - if I chat with Drache how would she know you? I'd just like to review what she's advised you.

Rick

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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:39 am 
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Firstly, I do need to make a correction, it is not Drache that did her fecal. It is Cheryl Lorio that owns the site and store BeardedDragon.co. Rio Reptiles is her breeding site. I don't know why I thought it was Drache that owned that site. I've never spoken to her, just know she is the go to person on BeardedDragon.org. and a lot of the advice she has given is similar to what I read here. I apologize for this mistake. Do you happen to know Cheryl? Should I still trust the results? I believe the dosage was .16 cc 2x.

As far as Niras growth, that is what I don't get about her. She has never been a big eater as far as I could tell. Since 7 weeks old the most crickets she ever ate in 1 day was 22, and that was once or twice. The majority of the time she ate around 12-15. I switched her to roaches at about 3 months and she has never eaten more than 15 of those once a day. Since about 5 months she would only eat 8-10 a day, or every other day. It was the same with her silks, horns, and supers. 3 or 4 and she was done. That is why I never understood how she got so much bigger than other dragons her age when they were doubling her food intake. I can promise this dragon has never gorged on food like I hear they will. I ordered her 500 7/8 in roaches in Oct last year and haven't needed any since, if that's any indication of her food intake. Do you think it's something I should be concerned with?

As for your 3rd comment...that dial thing on her hot side is a humidity gage for a rough guess on where it is at. I measure her temps with a IR gun and periodically cross check that with a digital temp gage. There is also a digital readout for humidity and temp on the cool side.

I guess l'll just keep offering her salad and a couple roaches daily and see if she starts to eat while I wait for the vet appt.
Fingers crossed its just brumation and not something more. I'll let you know the vets opinion after I go. Thank yo so much for your time and help.

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Kim
Mom to 2 beautiful boys 6 & 8
Bearded dragon, Nira, born 7/10/13
Dog, Dozer, born 9/25/08


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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:05 am 
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Hi - I do know Drache very well and as you've seen we've similar views and knowledge in this field. The other person I don't know so can't really comment - however not knowing the strength of the panacur mixture or anything else about the results I'd hesitate to do anything until I'd spoken to a vet. As for feeding/size it sounds as if she's just got "big bones" :lol: I'd put her on an adult diet of 8 roaches every second or third day and a mix of veg offered daily. Just offer the various grubs as treats occasionally as a substitute not in addition to the roaches. Sorry I can't be more help but it does need a professional check.

Rick :D

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 Post subject: Re: a new food issue
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:12 pm 
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You might not be able to answer all of my obsessive questions at this point, but you have eased my mind a bit and for that I'm greatful. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: I don't think I have to worry about weight gain at this point because she looks at me like I've got 3 heads when I put her 4 roaches and salad in everyday, like you've got to be kidding me!!! :evil:

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Mom to 2 beautiful boys 6 & 8
Bearded dragon, Nira, born 7/10/13
Dog, Dozer, born 9/25/08


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